Curse

Ender Ward · Aug 15, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

After testing, the flight time may stack, but Favorable is all you realistically need to keep people from dodging. The damage doesn't stack. Please stop giving mis-information.

First, 'may'? Are you blind? And weren't you so convinced a day ago that flight time doesn't stack? Uh oh, could ICURADik actually be wrong about something? Perish the thought ...

Second, I'm not going to continue arguing with your about RtW + FW damage in a yet another thread.

Third, read what you're quoting. The entire thing refers to flight time. Your personal crusade seems to be intruding into everything.

Lastly, FW alone alone is livable with on a Flatbow, but Read The Wind + FW give the best trajectory. You almost never miss with the combo. 'Course if your build requires Kindle/Ignite, Melandru's Arrows or Choking Gas, you don't exactly have much of a choice but to just be content with Favourable Winds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

On a different note Frenzy is the best attack speed buff on a Quickshot build.

Now I know you're trolling.

There's a whole thread about Frenzy vs Tiger's Fury on a bow ranger. Go read it.

Neo-LD · Aug 15, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Wars get attack about as much or less than rangers. Isnt this the same guy who is completely dead set against frenzy on a warrior? Now, on a character who can actually afford the better speed buff, he wants to go with the wal-mart version, frenzy?

Ender Ward · Aug 15, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Wars get attack about as much or less than rangers. Isnt this the same guy who is completely dead set against frenzy on a warrior? Now, on a character who can actually afford the better speed buff, he wants to go with the wal-mart version, frenzy?

Ironic, isn't it?

Or perhaps 'hypocritical' is more appropriate ...

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

First, 'may'? Are you blind? And weren't you so convinced a day ago that flight time doesn't stack? Uh oh, could ICURADik actually be wrong about something? Perish the thought ...

Second, I'm not going to continue arguing with your about RtW + FW damage in a yet another thread.

Third, read what you're quoting. The entire thing refers to flight time. Your personal crusade seems to be intruding into everything.

Lastly, FW alone alone is livable with on a Flatbow, but Read The Wind + FW give the best trajectory. You almost never miss with the combo. 'Course if your build requires Kindle/Ignite, Melandru's Arrows or Choking Gas, you don't exactly have much of a choice but to just be content with Favourable Winds.

Now I know you're trolling.

There's a whole thread about Frenzy vs Tiger's Fury on a bow ranger. Go read it.

This thread is about Quickshot. You said RtW stacks with FW for damage with JI insight. The fact is neither stack, and JI doesn't affect either.

A Quickshot Ranger is one of the few characters where frenzy works well, because when using frenzy your biggest fear is ele spikes. You already have 100(115 most of the time if you got light armor chest piece) armor. If you see a warrior running at you just pop Lightning Reflexes and laugh. A Hammer warrior on the other hand has 40 elemental armor with Frenzy up(which is reduced to 30 by 25% penetration).

This realization along with the fact that you don't need to waste 20-30 attribute points for Beast Mastery allows you to focus more in Expertise/Marks/WS for much more overall damage.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Wars get attack about as much or less than rangers. Isnt this the same guy who is completely dead set against frenzy on a warrior? Now, on a character who can actually afford the better speed buff, he wants to go with the wal-mart version, frenzy?

ON A HAMMER WARRIOR.

Ender Ward · Aug 15, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

ON A HAMMER WARRIOR.

*snicker*

Looks like he's finally having an aneurism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

This thread is about Quickshot. You said RtW stacks with FW for damage with JI insight. The fact is neither stack, and JI doesn't affect either.

Sure, sure man. 'Facts' those are not. Obviously I'm just dreaming up those numbers, when I, and others who tried the build and posted their results, hit a caster for ~55 without JI and for ~80 with it ...

Quote:

A Quickshot Ranger is one of the few characters where frenzy works well, because when using frenzy your biggest fear is ele spikes. You already have 100(115 most of the time if you got light armor chest piece) armor. If you see a warrior running at you just pop Lightning Reflexes and laugh. A Hammer warrior on the other hand has 40 elemental armor with Frenzy up(which is reduced to 30 by 25% penetration).

This realization along with the fact that you don't need to waste 20-30 attribute points for Beast Mastery allows you to focus more in Expertise/Marks/WS for much more overall damage.

There's a thread about this already. You're not gonna make me waste time repeating the same arguments that are already made there.

Infact, I may just be done replying to you in general. Not feeding trolls and all ...

Neo-LD · Aug 15, 2005, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

This realization along with the fact that you don't need to waste 20-30 attribute points for Beast Mastery allows you to focus more in Expertise/Marks/WS for much more overall damage.

TF only requires 6 total skill points to be used effectively (3+1 = 4 beast mastery = 7 second TF) It gets much better if you can pump it to 9, but if you cant thats perfectly fine, your ok.

And seeing as how most of the QS builds I see here are running 2 sup runes(which I generally disagree with in the first place) , I dont really think they feel like taking double damage.

Neo-LD · Aug 15, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Infact, I may just be done replying to you in general. Not feeding trolls and all ...

If I had a nickel for every time youve said that... lol

Ender Ward · Aug 15, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If I had a nickel for every time youve said that... lol

Had to tie up each thread individually, lol. He's a persistent type.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

TF only requires 6 total skill points to be used effectively (3+1 = 4 beast mastery = 7 second TF) It gets much better if you can pump it to 9, but if you cant thats perfectly fine, your ok.

And seeing as how most of the QS builds I see here are running 2 sup runes(which I generally disagree with in the first place) , I dont really think they feel like taking double damage.

Frenzy=8 second, 5 energy, 5 second recharge. Using it instead of level 8+1 Beast Mastery could allow you to take out one of your Superior runes.

stryphe · Aug 16, 2005, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

TF only requires 6 total skill points to be used effectively (3+1 = 4 beast mastery = 7 second TF) It gets much better if you can pump it to 9, but if you cant thats perfectly fine, your ok.

And seeing as how most of the QS builds I see here are running 2 sup runes(which I generally disagree with in the first place) , I dont really think they feel like taking double damage.

I actually sacked a point in Wilderness (still had 9 regen with Troll Unguent) and pumped a few points into BM to get the same results. Only sup is in Expertise and all others are minors with a marksman mask (irrelevent to a QS build)
only 75 health loss, no double damage from frenzy and a smooth decline in energy for a few seconds.

Att Points for my test build
BM - 6 (minor)
Expertise - 14 (sup)
WS - 11 (minor)
Marks - 10 (minor + mask) -I don't use it much anyway but buff it when I can.

ICURADik · Aug 19, 2005, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green_Lantern

kindle arrows doesnt make your attacks all fire damage, they add a certain amount of fire damage, while your arrows still do their normal base physical damage, which winnowing adds 4 to.

/Lantern

Just re-read the thread. Surprised no one else pointed it out, but your wrong...

coldslammer · Aug 20, 2005, 02:48 AM // 02:48

/troll mode on

Reading just about every thread about QS builds etc, trialing everyones ideas, i would have to agree just about everything ICURADik has said and his ideas.

Frenzy is a pain in the a$$ for taking double dmg, as for having concerns about ele spikers, i would think the ele should be more scared of you with QS spam and all.

I've managed to trial the QS/QS/QS/QS/QS build, which was great fun testing, i managed to take down a ele spiker in 3 seconds, with the immediate response of "WTF BS HACKER", i was almost in tears such a great laugh, and my energy of course was depleted pretty quick, but i kill the ele successfully, anyway during that time, i preped up again, layed a trap, troll urgent from any conditions or hexes suffering from, while the team was putting pressure with a man down, i managed to continue the combo Normal/QS/Normal/QS/Normal/QS at a good pase finishing the rest of the team without having to worry about energy, but still dealing considerable dammage.

The JI idea is plain dumb, tried it, not very effective.
I also wasnt satisfied with TF, Frenzy all the way imo, and as experienced ppl would say, the game is all about positioning, even if it means run away for 2 seconds to avoid an attack.

Edit:

Just on a side note, with the QS/QS/QS/QS build, i managed to take down a monk healer b4 he/she knew what hit him, another great laugh, the prot monks are hard to get though, but nature renewal would fix that, if the team all did the big thumbs up.

/troll mode off

ICURADik · Aug 20, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Did anyone else ever test RtW and FW? I want to know why it works on Ender's verison of the game and not mine.

Mind Wallaby · Aug 20, 2005, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Did anyone else ever test RtW and FW? I want to know why it works on Ender's verison of the game and not mine.

I tested this and I think you're correct.

Here's what I did:
*Lowered my Marks to 10, and used an 11 req max damage horn bow (zealous mod, so no elemental flim-flam bugging things up), with no relevant damage mod. At this level, Read the Winds adds 8 damage and Favorable Winds adds 6.

*Paid the sand drakes outside Elona a friendly visit.

With normal attack alone, I did from 4 to 7 damage, criticals hit for 10.
With normal attack + Favorable Winds, my damage range went up by 6 as you'd expect. Most hits were in the 12-13 range, criticals at 17.
With normal attack + Favorable Winds + Read the Winds, my normal hits averaged 14-15, criticals at 19. Sometimes I went as low as 12, which should not even be possible if Read the Winds and Favorable Winds stacked (their combined bonus should be +14 damage).

So it looks like if you cast Favorable Winds, then Read the Winds, only Read the Winds takes effect. I didn't test the other way around since it's not a very realistic scenario to cast RTW before FW.

Good find ICURADik, I think this should be /bug'd. There's no reason RTW and FW shouldn't stack, since one is a preparation and the other is a nature ritual.

Ender Ward · Aug 20, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

My own testing (when I first thought of combining JI with RtW and FW about a month ago) was done on the Trolls outside of Maguuma Stade, as they're melee attackers and to tend to run directly towards you (and thus cause a critical).

Criticals with just FW were always less than criticals with FW and RtW on.

*shrug*

And now could somebody test ICURADik's claim that Judge's Insight has no effect on Read the Wind and Melandru's Arrows (when it so obviously does)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldslammer

/troll mode on

The JI idea is plain dumb, tried it, not very effective.

/troll mode off

Care to elaborate?

Mind Wallaby · Aug 20, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

My own testing (when I first thought of combining JI with RtW and FW about a month ago) was done on the Trolls outside of Maguuma Stade, as they're melee attackers and to tend to run directly towards you (and thus cause a critical).

I think you only score automatic criticals when your target is moving away from you, but I'm not positive.

Quote:

Criticals with just FW were always less than criticals with FW and RtW on.

Yes, and that's the way it should be, but not because FW and RTW stack; it's because RTW overwrites FW, and RTW adds more damage than FW.

Ender Ward · Aug 20, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind Wallaby

Yes, and that's the way it should be, but not because FW and RTW stack; it's because RTW overwrites FW, and RTW adds more damage than FW.

I should've clarified. The crits were also higher than with RtW by itself.

I would replicate the test if I stil had a PvE character capable of it (where's that Guild Hall skirmish area damnit?).

~~~

So how about that claim of Judge's Insight not enhancing the damage from Read The Wind or Melandru's Arrows?

Mind Wallaby · Aug 20, 2005, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

So how about that claim of Judge's Insight not enhancing the damage from Read The Wind or Melandru's Arrows?

Unfortunately it looks like ICURADik is right again.

Here was my setup:
* 15%>50% max damage Zealous short bow of Fortitude, req 9
* 8 Marksmanship, 8 Wilderness Survival
At these attribute levels, RTW adds 7 damage and Melandru's Arrows adds 19 damage.

I used the sand drakes outside Elona's again, this time recording 20 hits with each test condition and taking the average. (For the Melandru's tests, of course, I waited for the drakes to cast Earth Attunement before attacking).

Data:

normal: 4.05
normal + JI: 8.45
normal + melandru's: 23.2
normal + JI + melandru's: 26.35
normal + RTW: 10.95
normal + RTW+ JI: 14.4

So it looks like Melandru's and RTW are just adding damage at the end, and are not modified by JI itself, even though JI was always cast last in these tests.

Ender Ward · Aug 20, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Surely simply enhancing base bow damage with 20% armor penetration cannot account for damage (on casters, so conversion to holy shouldn't matter) jumping from mid 50s to mid 80s in game ...

And 20% AP certainly doesn't explain hits for as high as 100 with JI + Melandru's and only as high as 70 without JI.

Simply trying a Melandru's Build in the arena with JI and then without, the difference is very obvious.

~~~

I notice that you're using a bow without meeting the requirements (to keep the base damage numbers low and stable). I can't help but wonder if that is having an effect on the damage mechanics during your test.